Q&A with Adrienne Tooley, author of "The Third Daughter"

I can’t friggin wait for residency 🎒

Call me a nerd if you must, but I’m absolutely thrumming with excitement in the lead-up to my fourth grad residency. This summer, we’re heading to Colorado Springs (yes, I live in NYC, go to a school called “Vermont College of Fine Arts,” and have residency in Colorado. Next question?) and while I have some hesitations about how it’ll all pan out, I’m definitely excited to step foot somewhere new!

More on that in a future newsletter, because today! Today is all about my Q&A with Adrienne Tooley, author of sapphic YA fantasies including Sweet & Bitter Magic and the upcoming The Third Daughter. I was delighted a few months ago when the publisher reached out to send me an ARC of this book, and even more delighted a few weeks ago when Adrienne agreed to an interview! It was such a refreshing, delightful conversation — we touched on everything from why we write sapphic love stories to our intense childhood fascination with fictional diaries, as well as — well, I won’t spoil things for you! Read on for more!

Welcome to the interview 🙋

Karis Rogerson: How did you first get into storytelling through writing?

Adrienne Tooley: I was definitely always a big reader — [I thought], “it’s fine that I don’t have any friends in the neighborhood, I have books.” My mom and I would go on dates when I was six, to a coffees hop and read…for a long time that was it. When I was in middle school I had bad insomnia and could not fall asleep. My mom handed me a journal — if [your thoughts are] on the page, they’re not in your head anymore.

I started journaling religiously. I have a gigantic tupperware box in my parent’s house of the journals I kept from 10-25. After a while, I was like…I’m writing this to be read. I’ve finessed this voice, and what if I tried to write something interesting. That’s how I became a writer. I developed my voice and then I found stories. It’s not always the way. I think for a really long time I was like, wouldn’t that be cool if I could write a book, but it felt big and scary and impossible.

I’m always in awe of people who wrote books at 12, queried at 16. I didn’t actually write an entire honest-to-god book until like 2016. I had written fragments and things. I had all these half-told thoughts and stories. I finally sat down and was like I could do it. And if I did it once, I could do it again!

KR: I’ve never heard anyone else say that you journaled for someone else to read. I read way too many of the Royal Diaries growing up … so good … I started a journal in fourth grade, and I was like, “When I’m dead and you find this journal, this is what’s going on.”

AT: I’m crying, I literally did the same thing. Do you know those Dear America books?

KR: Oh yeah!

AT: The not-princess versions. I read so many of those that I got this hardcover book, and I started the one where she’s on the Mayflower, and she had named her diary. I was like, I’m gonna name my diary this! And then I was writing, I was like, this isn’t actually that interesting, so I’m gonna write an excerpt on the back cover … but then I was like, that’s not in the book. So then I had to inject the diary entry on the back cover into the diary, and I was like … “This feels inauthentic.” I’m obsessed that you know Royal Diaries.

KR: What is it that compels you to write? It’s not like we’re doing this to make money, so why do we do it?

AT: It’s not for the money or the public attention — I would like to be unperceived at all times. It’s not for the schedules or the clear communication…

It comes down to — I love words, they’re so important and so powerful and I think that — I think of that Kendall Roy meme If I don’t get to do this I might die — we’re all sort of compelled to do this even though we know it’s terrible. There’s something important about the work we’re doing, whether it’s a connection to our past selves, current teenage readers, hope for the future readers. Storytelling can be selfish, but it’s never JUST for you. It’s [for] the people that read a book that I wrote that I thought only I could understand … it makes you feel less alone.

I also have the undercurrent of very specifically I write sapphic fantasy books, and that is so important … I will always write queer novels. That’s massively important. I write these books and my wife is like “you’re writing for me at 16,” I didn’t have this and it’s what I needed. I came into my queerness a lot later in life … I almost didn’t know it was an option. It was not there. There was a little bit of like gay boys but sanitized, there were not lesbians or sapphic characters at all. It’s a reclamation for me of what my teenage self didn’t get and what I wanna make sure my teenage readers get now. I can’t not let that be part of the work.

There is this whole area of my life that is so instrumental … who would I have been if I had access to it, if I had known … There is a a bit of magic that authors get to do where they get to reach across that divide.

KR: What inspired The Third Daughter?

AT: My brand is I write whimsical sapphic fantasies about girls with lots of feelings. I decided to lean into it … This is what we’re gonna do. When I first was musing over this idea of this book, I had this image of when you’re a teenager, sometimes you feel a lot of things, sometimes poeple give you the advice to just bottle it up…and that fascinated me. What would happen if someone could literally bottle up their emotions and what if those emotions were magic. And that is how the character of Sabine Anders was born. She holds in her sadness and her darkness and lets it stew, and when she cries her tears are magic. I could not have been more thrilled to find a way to work that into a book.

This book was founded on the idea that it’s okay to be sad and that contrary to what the world would have you believe, an emotional woman can be a powerful woman. That’s kind of where this book was born from, was this exploration of sadness and emotion, and looking at mental health through the allegorical lens of fantasy, which I think is such a gift to be able to play with things of that nature. And then of course, if you have an emotional apothecary, what better way to offer her a perfect foil than to give her an antiheroine princess willing to stop at nothing to save her throne. That’s gonna be bonkers.

I wanted to write a book about feelings, someone who feels so much and someone who has been taught to be cold and calculating, and how the … what their relationship would look like as they battle the world around them. This book is at the heart of it a book about feeling things. It has a more dark fantasy lens than my first two books. We’re growing up a little bit.

KR: As for the religious system in the book, I personally grew up deeply evangelical and as I was reading it … it felt familiar. How did you come up with that whole history of the world and the church system?

AT: I grew up Catholic and I am no longer Catholic, so that’s probably a good place to start. I think it’s important to use fantasy to dismantle the systems that exist in our world and look at them through new lenses. I thought this would be a really interesting opportunity to look at … I wanted to play with the idea of the worship of a deity vs the actual words of the Church because I think that there are some pretty good examples in our day-to-day life of people who do things in the name of their savior that their savior would never condone.

I wanted to know what that deity might think about it … if that was really the intention or if maybe some things got misconstrued along the way. And so I definitely pulled from some knowable places, there are some very specific themes that will be recognizable to anyone that attended church in the last 20 or so years, regardless of denomination. I did that on purpose. I think that it can be so hard to separate the church from the savior and I wanted an opportunity to say is this really … was this really what was meant? This seemed like a good place to explore it.

One thing I’m not trying to do is I’m not trying to invalidate anyone’s faith, it’s about the investigation into the institution, not what it means to be a believer. It’s an important distinction. It can very, like, “this is a criticism to all people who think this.” That was never the intention, it was always about, what are the structures of power, the systems in place that are maybe not what was intended, and how do they disproportionately affect the people who have put their faith in these people with power.

KR: Has there been any particular aspect of the journey to publication for this book that has brought you extra joy?

AT: Fun fact: this book was pitched as a standalone originally. When we went on sub with it, it was a standalone novel. That’s my signature at this point. When it hit the inbox of my now editor, she immediately emailed my agent and was like, “is there more here, i think there’s more here?” That was the first time someone had given me permission to take a story beyond a single book. I’m so excited … that, to me, was really special. Someone saw something I had made, and was like “there’s more here,” and gave me permission to unlock it. Even though I’m just coming off this very stressful deadline for the sequel … I got to do this. I got to bring these characters on a much bigger journey and I think that this book in standalone form would never have been as good as this duology about sadness and anger is about.

It was the first time somebody was like, “Let’s do more,” so I got to reapproach how I look at drafting and planning. It was a really cool opportunity that I’m super grateful for.

KR: Is there any … is there any non-spoilery element of the book that hasn’t been heavily marketed or publicized that you think will surprise readers?

AT: I have maybe not done a super strong job at making Sabine’s darkness as present in the pre-read marketing. It’s one of my favorite pieces of the book but it’s really hard to capture in a TikTok quote or Instagram caption. But I do think the manifestation or personification of her own insecurity and doubt was very cathartic thing for me to write. I am hopeful that it’s an interesting way for people to take on mental health.

I think the other thing that I hope people like is that a lot of my previous books have small casts of characters, there are not that many people. This book has lots of people in it! It was such a joy to play with those different sibling dynamics and relationships and character arcs.

KR: I was fascinated from the beginning, as someone who has lived with my own depression for many many years, I was like … I see something happening here. It’s not something that I see often represented in fantasy … I thought it was really cool.

AT: I’m super glad to hear that, one of the cool things about fantasy also is, as a reader, you can decide how much you wanna read into it. You could read this book … and think, is that some neat magic or a deeply relatable experience that I’m reading about on the page?

KR: Do you have any advice to give to aspiring authors?

AT: Yes. You have to find things that you love, and you have to hold onto the love of it, and for the love of all that is holy, enjoy writing for yourself while you can. Enjoy … those moments where you write a really good sentence and you want to run around the room and dance, always run around the room and dance. Those moments you write the end of a chapter and you want to shout because you’re a genius, shout. Those are the things you can keep with you, that you can control, so much of this is out of your control and has nothing to do with the words on the page.

Make the words matter to you, because that’s what’s gonna help you see it through.

KR: Can you recommend 1-3 books that you have read and loved recently? Or not-so-recently.

AT: Where Echoes Die by Courtney Gould just came out last month, I’m obsessed with Courtney’s writing … it’s so haunting and phenomenal. I am obsessed.

I haven’t read this but I know I’m going to love it … Painted Devils by Margarent Owen. I’m looking at it, like, do I finally have time to read you?

I will talk about this book until I am rotting in the ground … If Tomorrow Doesn’t Come by Jen St. Jude is a perfect book. It is one of the most spectacular pieces of writing that exist, everyone in the world should read it … I have cried every single time I read this book.

KR: Is there anything else you would like to add? Anything on your mind, that you wish people would ask you more often in interviews?

AT: For people that like books … please preorder books from your favorite authors so that they can write more books. It’s the only thing we can do.

Adieu 👋

I hope you enjoyed this edited version of my conversation with Adrienne! I had such a blast chatting with her, and I’m so excited to see The Third Daughter hit stores (and my mailbox) on Tuesday! Go ahead and pre-order now if you’d like it!

Next week, I’m hoping to send you a missive from the midst of residency, so stay tuned for that!